Heather Direnzo and Debra Dinnocenzo discuss the challenges and creative solutions of leading a fully remote team as a remote leader. Heather shares her experience as a senior leader of teams that operate several states away from her.  She offers insights regarding the importance of establishing connections, building relationships, and strongly conveying her openness and availability through various tech tools.  This ensures that Heather’s team members know how to reach out to her and, more importantly, how much she values their input so she can address their concerns in a timely and proactive manner.  As a practicing remote leader of distance teams, Heather offers important and useful guidance for remote leaders.

About the Guest:

Heather Direnzo has worked in financial services for the past 14 years in branch and sales management, business development, and call center operations. She currently works for Affinity Federal Credit Union, the largest credit union in New Jersey, as the VP of Contact Center Operations. Heather leads a large team comprised of service, sales, and operations employees. Her focus on relationship-building, employee engagement, leveraging technology, and data-based decision making has led to positive, impactful results in both the department and company at large.

Heather graduated from Purdue University with a BS in Business Administration degree and currently lives in the Chicago, IL area with her husband and 3 children. She enjoys reading, music, finding new hiking trails (when it is warm enough 😉), trying new restaurants, and spending time with her family and friends. 

Connect with Heather at:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-d-8a467177/

About the Host:

Since publishing her first book on telecommuting in 1999, Debra has been a pioneer in the shift to virtual work and remote leadership. Few practitioners in the field have the depth of knowledge and hands-on experience that distinguishes Debra in the hybrid workplace and remote leadership space. As a nationally recognized expert in remote workplace and distance leadership, Debra has spoken widely on related topics, and developed and taught “Leadership in the Virtual Workplace,” an online graduate-level course.

Debra A. Dinnocenzo is president and founder of VirtualWorks!, a consulting, coaching, and training firm that specializes in virtual work issues. Debra is a dynamic keynote speaker, innovative educator, impactful coach, seasoned executive, and successful author. 

Debra is the co-author of the recently released book, REMOTE LEADERSHIP – Successfully Leading Work-from-Anywhere and Hybrid Teams, as well as several other books on remote and virtual teams. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/debradinnocenzo/

https://dinnocenzospeaks.com/

https://virtualworkswell.com/

Schedule a call with Debra HERE

Thanks for listening!

Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page.

Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!

Subscribe to the podcast

If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Leave us an Apple Podcasts review

Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript
Debra Dinnocenzo:

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of the remote leadership Podcast. I'm really excited today to welcome my guest, Heather Direnzo. And Heather has worked in financial services the past 14 years in branch and sales management, business development and call center operations. She currently works for affinity Federal Credit Union based in New Jersey as the VP of call center operations. Heather graduated from Purdue University with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration, and currently lives in Chicago with her husband and three children. And she still made time to chat with us today, which I appreciate Heather, welcome.

Heather Direnzo:

Thank you so much, Debra thank you for having me. And hello, everyone.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

So you're in Chicago, and where's the rest of your team?

Heather Direnzo:

The rest of my team is in New Jersey, Basking Ridge, New Jersey, mostly, I would say central New Jersey, Pennsylvania, but we also have employees that are scattered throughout the United States as well.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

Okay, so you're living the remote leadership life?

Heather Direnzo:

We are? We sure are. Okay, so.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

So, how long have you been doing that? And how was that working? And what do you think is working? Well, I'd like to hear about what have some of your challenges have been but you know, mostly how how's it working?

Heather Direnzo:

Yeah, absolutely. I think we all remember the, the fun year of 2020, when our worlds shifted with COVID. And the pandemic and I still remember the day in March, where everyone was sent home packed up laptops, I had a big monitors, I loaded into my car and had to, you know, create a desk at home didn't even have a desk setup. And the entire team also had to leave the office. From there, we thought that we were only going to be working remotely for I think over three weeks was one of the setbacks time.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

As a three week adventure, yes.

Heather Direnzo:

And it was like three weeks I can do this, you know, kids and remote learning me sitting right next to them at the dining room table, this is going to be okay, for three weeks. Three weeks comes and goes. And we are going to be staying remote for a couple months. And that really, I mean, of course that shifted over time, we went from fully remote to hybrid and going into the office a couple of days a week. And that was that my my previous employer, but right now currently, I'm fully remote, of course, affinity is in New Jersey, and I'm here in Chicago, and then most of my team is remote. Some of my team members going to go into the office once or twice per week. But for the most part, everyone's remote. I would say the pros of things that are going really well with remote and hybrid work are the productivity aspect. I think that's the first thing that pops into my mind. You know, for me, personally, I noticed I log in a little bit earlier, right? I don't have that drive to the office anymore. I can just log into my computer. As soon as I'm really up and ready. You know, you typically log out a little bit later as well. So and I think the the productivity factor of just, you know, being at home and not having as many interruptions throughout the day is really helpful. So I think the number one thing that pops up and I

Debra Dinnocenzo:

are personally more productive. Yes, leveraging that time that used to be commute time. And is your team productive as well? Yes,

Heather Direnzo:

actually, I have done a couple analysis in the past of the productivity prior to COVID. Versus now and I know call centers a little bit different than other departments where we have the benefit of being able to track every right, that's helpful. Okay. Yeah, absolutely, you know, every call time of the call in between each call. And my team is more productive in this environment than they were pre COVID. So I also think that is extremely interesting, as well. Why do you think that is? I think it's the lack of interrupt interruptions. I know for me, the walk bys, you know, the people that walk by, and those are really wonderful conversations, but it does take you away, I think from your everyday job and what you're working on, you know, I would have people walk in and just say, hey, you know, how was your weekend and if you get that, you know, five to 10 times in a day kind of pulls you away. Right, right and your work and what you're supposed to be doing. There can of course be distractions at home Long, but I just think it's it's a lot less frequent.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

Yeah. And there's some interesting studies around how long it takes to get refocused and back into the zone after those little interruptions, and how that erodes productivity. So you are in an enviable position where so much is easily tracked with call center operations. And so that's great, because there's a lot of concern right now around productivity and a big push to get everybody back in the office, because the perception is we'll be more productive. If we're together, we'll be more innovative and collaborative. And there's rarely any data to support those assumptions and assertions. So that's really interesting that you've been able to track that and do those comparisons. So you're personally more productive, your team is more productive? Do you evaluate their satisfaction, as well in terms of engagement? And are they happier employees? That might that be why they're more productive?

Heather Direnzo:

We absolutely do. Yes. engagement surveys are something that the companies I've worked for have done every year, sometimes multiple times a year. And engagement scores have been very high in the call center. And so I think that's a number one contributor to that productivity, you know, when you have more engaged employees, happier employees, I do think the productivity is directly correlated to that engagement, they want to work hard, they're so loyal, you know, to the company to their leader, for allowing, I think this work environment. So I think that is a that's a top contributor to the higher productivity for sure. Yes. Great.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

So are there any things that you reflect on? On so you hired in basically as a remote leader?

Heather Direnzo:

I was yes.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

So how did you kind of forge relationships with a whole new team that had never met you? You didn't have any prior relationships within the organization? Be curious about that, because we're going to continue to see more remote leaders hiring in and taking over a whole new team? Absolutely.

Heather Direnzo:

I will say, that was one of the things I was most nervous about, you know, just full transparency. I was like, I'm in Chicago, they're on the East Coast, you know, how am I ask that question to myself? How am I going to make these relationships work? Obviously, you have video, but one of the things that I did in the beginning was going person, I took a trip, I went twice, actually once per quarter. And I was able to meet with everyone in person, it was casual, we just went out to lunch. But I definitely wanted to meet everyone in person. The second step, I think, was the organization around the relationships. And what I mean by that is, I mapped out everyone that I needed to meet with, and although it's it's a lot of people that you need to meet, it's important to meet with them all. So yes, when you're hired, and as a remote employee, you're extremely busy. Those first couple months and just introduction, you know, introductory meetings across the organization, you don't have the in person, environment where people can just walk in and say hi, you know, welcome, where you have to be proactive and schedule those meetings and introductory, really those introductory meetings. Yeah.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

Yeah. So as a best practice, being planful and intentional about those and, and, actually, I think that it's important for leaders and for 14 members who hire into a remote environment to take responsibility for that. And from an onboarding perspective, making sure that they understand that that's important, because not everybody would be conscious of that, as they're so busy, you know, trying to learn their new job and, you know, get all the tools that they need and that sort of thing. So, absolutely,

Heather Direnzo:

that. Absolutely, that has to come first. And I think from the company perspective, you know, the company has to give autonomy to those people that they're hiring in understanding that those first couple of months are really about the relationship building. So I think that also needs to be structured in to the beginning of the onboarding for that new hire.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

Yep. So have you hired new people into your team as remote team members and how are you doing that to ensure that they ramp up and are productive in the shortest amount of time? Yeah,

Heather Direnzo:

we absolutely have a Our training area they are they do a phenomenal job, they have the training program all mapped out for remote employees, we're able to share screens, we're able to listen. So I know from a call center side, they're able to actually listen to calls, they're able to shoot see the screen, they can use the whiteboard, which is on Zoom, I know teams has that feature as well, where they can kind of share their screen, and both of them take notes at the same time. So I think one of the key differences with remote training versus in person is it's it's a lot more meetings, you know, during the day with different areas, different departments, and sharing of the screen, you know, being on video for, you know, six to eight hours in a day is of course, very different than in person learning.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, there's some there are downsides and you know, screen time and the wear and tear on eyes and that sort of thing. But, you know, at the same time, there are some significant upsides. And it sounds like for you, the not having a commute in either Chicago or New Jersey, which could be pretty treacherous commutes and other places.

Heather Direnzo:

Yes, absolutely. And I will say, with training, one of the things that we've noticed, too, with remote training is we onboard, we get people up and running faster. And I think going back to what I said about being in person and having a lot more of those casual conversations, I think that happened in training and onboarding, as well. And we are noticing that training time has also shortened people are a lot more productive in training and getting through the training of it faster. Yeah,

Debra Dinnocenzo:

yeah. So one of the things I keep hearing is, and I don't think it's the biggest driver of getting people back in the office, I think, our sense of why we need to get people back in the offices, we think, we think we'll be more innovative and creative and all that stuff, again, without a lot of data to support that. But that, you know, we're missing something with the interpersonal part of this. And I acknowledge, you know, we're, we're social beings, this is all good stuff. Have you found any way to sort of simulate and replicate that the informal, you know, virtual walk bys, if I can call it that, you know, we don't really know what it is yet. And technology allows us to feel really a human and warm and comfortable with it, but it's a definitely a missing piece. So I'm exploring that with everyone I talked with the big, here's the weird

Heather Direnzo:

thoughts. Yeah, and I think in person, you know, building those interpersonal relationships, I absolutely acknowledge that that can be impactful. I think there are ways though, you know, being remote or hybrid, that you're able to still build strong connections with people, and I've done that with my team, and others in the organization, too. I go back to the planning, and being mindful of which relationships you're building. And how you can do that I take a lot of notes as well, I would say best practices a lot, because you meet with so many different people, when you're remotely that, you know, I draw, I jot down a lot of notes, the walk bys that you mentioned, you know, you're not doing them often. So sometimes I'll take a note, you know, checking with whomever about their weekend. Check in with, you know, this person, the, her son had a soccer game, you know, those those types of things, I think are really important to note. So you can do those, those walk bys in a remote way. I think that personal touch on remote work or hybrid work is really important. And you can do it, you just have to be mindful.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

Right. I absolutely agree. And I think being intentional about that. And again, a lot of what I'm hearing through my my own research and from other people I talk with is, you know, managing all of that is a real challenge because we you know, we still have a job to get done, right? You have to make sure that the metrics are being met. But so doing that and keeping track of all of that. So are there any particular tools that you use, that you find really helpful in facilitating that human connectivity? Yes,

Heather Direnzo:

absolutely. For me, it's a combination of OneNote I love OneNote. I type all my meeting notes in there. Anything and everything goes in my OneNote. But then I make it a priority to add it into my Outlook calendar as something to do. Because I have found, if I'm not adding it as time in my calendar, sometimes it doesn't get done or it slips through the cracks. So even if it's something, you know, small, and I just want to have a casual touch base with someone about, you know, our weekends, or you know how the family is doing, I will add it to my calendar, it could be 10 minutes, could be five, it could be 15, but I add it into my day. So I organize my time for every single day.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

Right. And it's true, I mean, this this is like fundamental, you know, time management 101. Yeah, except that there's so many more little pieces to it, I think. And those things that happened, when we were together, we're together more often because more organizations are moving to hybrid. And so they are going to be together sometimes, although we just talked with a leader the other day, who said, you know, they're, they're wanting us back in the office. And, you know, not every day, but more days than previously. And I just went in yesterday, and I realized I spent pretty much the whole day talking to people and I didn't get any work done. And so, you know, we have to be mindful about that as well. But capturing those intentional reach outs, and putting it on calendars is so important. Or it does fall through the virtual cracks. And there are lots of virtual cracks, that thinks.

Heather Direnzo:

And I think, you know, on a larger scale, too, I've noticed that can happen in departments, right, as an example, you know, when everyone was pushed to being remote, you would have larger meetings, you know, department to department, so the call center would meet with, you know, cards, I know, it's financial services, but card, so they'd meet with the loan servicing on a monthly basis, all of that disappeared, right when COVID happened, and everyone was pushed to remote. So I also think it's very, very critical that the relationships interdepartmental II, are our, you know, monitor are maintained through those meetings. So silos aren't built, right? Even if they're casual meetings between a couple of leaders in this department and another department, those meetings also need to be had across the organization. So

Debra Dinnocenzo:

are you saying that those are not necessarily naturally occurring? And you have to consciously think about that and plan those and make that happen?

Heather Direnzo:

Absolutely. You know, when we were in the office, let's say I know, it's its call center, but we would have more casual, you know, huddles, huddles with our cards, teams, or our loan servicing team and you know, they would come in and we'd all be face to face, and they would talk about, you know, different promotions, different changes, things weren't going to impact our, you know, member base. And when we went remotely for a while there, all of that disappeared. And I think we were all learning that new normal, and how we could facilitate these discussions. And now what we have scheduled our monthly touch bases, we call them that's with us and all of these different areas. And even if there's not, you know, changes that we need to talk through, you know, whether it's process procedure or policy changes, or things that have happened that have you know, affected our membership base, we can have those more casual touch bases with them and see how things are going in their area share best practices. So I think those also, we noticed changed. In this environment, it's important that those are ongoing. When you're remote. How

Debra Dinnocenzo:

do you make yourself accessible to people for the kinds of dropins walked by guys informal, just wanting to connect with you? Yeah,

Heather Direnzo:

the first thing I thought of is communicating that and setting the right expectations. I know when I started, it took me so long to meet with everyone. I've got a pretty large team. But one of my, my number one priority was I need to meet with all of these people on emailing. I'm not someone that I enjoy sending an email to a large group and not knowing the faces and the people who I'm talking to. So I scheduled meetings with every single agent. And in every one of those meetings. I said to them, I am in Chicago, I know you're over on the east coast, but my Zoom door is what I call it is completely open. So if you want to send me a silly gift during the day, you know, if you want to send me a question, give me a call. Text me. I'm here. And that was my message in those meetings. And I communicated set that expectation and then I followed up with an email. It was just a simple, it was really great meeting with you. Thanks so much. for taking the time, just a reminder, I'm here for you, if you need anything, always, you can always reach out. So I think you really just have to communicate that and just set those expectations that your clarify,

Debra Dinnocenzo:

clarify that that's not bothering you. You're you're open doors open. It's just a virtual door. Exactly. So do people take advantage of that people on your team?

Heather Direnzo:

They do. Yeah, I noticed. After those meetings, they were probably my favorite meetings. They were so nice. It was so nice getting to know everyone. But I've gotten a lot of goofy gifts. A lot of, uh, you know, after I send an email, I'll get people that say, you know, hey, I have a follow up question to that. I think if you don't set the expectation that that door is open, maybe they would go to someone else, right? They might go to someone that they personally know and ask that question, but I'll send emails and get questions or, you know, smiley faces, reactions, those kinds of things. So absolutely.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

I understand you have a new team that you're just taking over now. And that's, that's a remote team. Also, I presume? It is. Yes. Yeah. So how are you approaching that? Because now you've been through this before? And so how are you approaching this team? And are you doing anything differently? Yeah,

Heather Direnzo:

I actually use my same approach. I met with the team as a group, I met with them as a group and introduce myself, because the inbound and outbound sales teams came over to the contact center world. So now I'm over the service side and sales and operations. And I met with the outbound team, as a group introduce myself, ran through some couple of numbers that we had answered any questions. And then I set up individual meetings with every salesperson and just got to know them a little bit answered any questions, because with the transit, I think one of the differences was this was a transition for them, they were moving from a different leader over, you know, to myself into a new team. So one of the main things I wanted to answer for them was, you know, what questions do you have about the transition? It was more of an open, I think dialogue around just I'm here for whatever, whatever questions you have,

Debra Dinnocenzo:

okay. So have you met this team yet? Not

Heather Direnzo:

in person, yet. I haven't met them in person, but I would love to, I plan to schedule a trip, I would say, next quarter, just even if it's a, you know, lunch or a potluck, I definitely want to meet them in person and establish that, you know, that relationship in person. And then, you know, obviously continue the meetings with them to remotely,

Debra Dinnocenzo:

right. So how often do you think it is important to meet with your team members, particularly your direct reports, and maybe some access to the broader team, but they're not even all in the office? So how often do you think face to face is, is necessary, helpful, or best practice?

Heather Direnzo:

Yeah, I definitely think it depends, you know, I think it can be subjective, depending on the type of department, the type of, you know, leaders that are in that department. I do think for me, what I found is successful is meeting in person quarterly, you know, and spending a couple of days I think, you know, going to lunch, attending meetings in person being able to talk through different things. I think that's very, very valuable. So,

Debra Dinnocenzo:

so it's really great that you have this, this kind of open, would you call it zoom open, just zoom door? To other you use other technologies for that as well? Is there a preference that people have? I mean, are you do they typically chat? Or do is email still a default? Or are there other tools? You know, there's there's slack and others circle and things like that?

Heather Direnzo:

I would say at zoom for us, especially for the more casual walk bias or drive bys. I would say, it's definitely zoom chat. For the more I would say complex or detailed scenarios, that's a call or email. So I would say more of those two for the more complex but for the more casual, you know, conversations definitely zoom chat. That's our that's our go to.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

Okay. And do you have a standard when you're having a Zoom meeting or teams or whatever you use to have cameras on?

Heather Direnzo:

We always do, actually. Yep. Cameras. I mean, unless there's, you know, we've had some people that have an internet issue, you know, when they go on video, sometimes it slows down and you know, their computer They can't share their screen or those types of scenarios, of course, we understand and are flexible with people, when different things come up like that. But for the most part, the standard is that video is on even in, you know, our large meetings that we have are all staff meetings with all the employees, for the most part, everyone has their, their video on. And I think that is very important, as well, to be able to see someone, right,

Debra Dinnocenzo:

it's such an advantage to have the visual component. And I mean, we're meeting with, with cameras on even though the podcast will be published with just audio. But in terms of, you know, the sense of us being together to have this conversation. Certainly I continue to hear strong preference, some organizations are afraid to set that as a standard for whatever reasons, which I think is kind of silly, because we don't let people come to, you know, onsite face to face meetings and, you know, turn their chair around or put a bag, which is it's pretty much the same thing. So, yeah. Are there any challenges that you are continuing to face that you think you haven't quite gotten your arms around or found solutions for?

Heather Direnzo:

That's such a good question.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

I mean, it sounds like generally, you're really managing this? Well. Yeah.

Heather Direnzo:

And I think I do have an advantage as a leader of a call center with having so much data at my fingertips and being able to really have measurable goals for every single level. In the call center. I do think that one of the struggles that I've heard of from other leaders that are in the same, you know, remote or hybrid environment is, you know, the setting of goals, how do we track? How do we track the productivity of people that are not physically here? And I think you and I have talked about this before, but it's always like, Well, how did you do it before, when you were in? When you're in the office, that's not? To me, I think you just have to work through the goals and make sure your goals track their productivity, that's really what I always go back to is making sure the goals are are measurable,

Debra Dinnocenzo:

right. And if we weren't doing it before, we're not doing it very well. Now, either. So I mean, I have said, for probably a decade and a half, that, you know, the best thing that is going to happen to performance management is the distributed workplace, because it's vitally important that we have to have goals have clear goals that we they can be articulated. And they are, those expectations are communicated. And everyone is clear about how their performance will be managed. And of course, in between all of that is the monitoring so that if you know people are going off the rails, we are coaching to ensure that they're back on track. And so that that remains very important. And I think for D motivation, or disconnection or disengagement happens, is in a couple of areas. One is performance management, aren't clear about those those measures and metrics. And when people don't feel connected, because nobody's reaching out to them that what you were talking about the past is Hortence, of intentional reach outs and and touch bases and huddles, and whatever language we use, it's, it takes time to do that. Because we, you know, we sucked up time in the office by just doing it informally, without really keeping track of how much time we lost doing that in the office. But there's a gain from that, too, right? It's not last time, if it's if it's focused properly. I

Heather Direnzo:

will say, too, I think another one of the struggles and thinking through exactly what you're saying is the number of meetings you have when you are remote. I think you know, because you don't have those block bys, those more casual interactions where Oh, hey, I got your email. Just had a quick question on that. That turns into a meeting. Yeah. So I also think that time management, of course, becomes even more of a priority, because you're going to have more meetings, right? Because you don't have that ability to walk in and ask a quick question. Right?

Debra Dinnocenzo:

You know, I keep wishing there was some kind of space that we can have a digital space where it didn't feel like a meeting and it felt like a walk by, right. You know, I know there are some tools, you know, like Marco Polo, and some tools like that, where you can do audio and video messaging, but it's still not real time. Right? So there are real time tools as well. And I think, but it does have the greater sense that it's more of has more structure somehow. And so So, you know, I'm increasingly aware of this, this sense of lack from not having the human touch the in the interpersonal, just checking in how it goes it. We used to call them How goes it meetings, briefings? The military called them how it goes it. And so anyway, well, it sounds like you're managing managing much of this extremely well. And are there any obstacles that you see with your new team that you have concerns about? Since you sounds like you haven't actually met them yet? Yeah,

Heather Direnzo:

yeah, I definitely want to do that definitely want to go in person and have a lunch and introduce myself in person. I think that's important. I think one of the biggest obstacles is probably the new figuring out the, the new norm, you know, and the the collaboration effort between the two sides of the departments. And I, the good news is they've known each other for a really long time. So the relationships are already wonderful between the two, but they were separate entities, separate departments, and now we've aligned, you know, the goals, the goals are a lot more connected now. So the collaboration is going to have to be higher, in 2024. So I think one of our initial challenges is going to be organizing and executing on those goals. So we can make sure like we now we're all aligned, we have the goal set, you know, the service side, fits right into the sales side and making sure that we're meeting those goals and meeting with each other. So we can exceed them.

Debra Dinnocenzo:

Right? Well, you mentioned the new normal, I always refer to it as the next normal, because I have to remind people that, you know, as soon as we get this all sorted out, it's going to change again, you know, we'll we'll be structure we'll have some new team members, or, you know, we're going back to the office two or three days a week. And so we're going to have to figure out the hybrid, and there's no for sure, with hybrid. While I think that will be the prevailing model. There's no one size fits all, I mean, each each organization, each team, department within organizations has to figure out what works best for them. So yep, so Heather, really informative. And it's great to hear all of the solutions that you've put in place and the ways that you've built relationships from very much from afar with your team. And so I'll be anxious to hear how it goes with the new team. I'm sure it will go well. So thanks for sharing your experiences with us. And, and we appreciate your time.

Heather Direnzo:

Of course. Thank you so much for having me, Debra. I appreciate it. Thanks.